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List of forums -> Free communication (everything except serious game talk) -> Migrant crysis: what is your opinion?

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Topic created : 4.09.2015, 21:55

Last time edited : 5.09.2015, 20:30
Sulaco
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Hi
Nowdays there is a lot of talking about the migrant crysis in Europe.
I am a Hungarian, so I am personally involved in this, but I would like to know what you, others think.
Please feel free to share your opinion, or ask questions.   

Message list:  

20.11.2015, 01:42

Last time edited : 20.11.2015, 01:55
Mike1
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More than 4 Million refugees, 11.6 Million people displaced, 250'000 dead:
 
http://www.vox.com/2015/9/14/9319293/syrian-refugees-civil-war ...
 
Sufficient powers may have been dragged to the table by now, ISIS "caliphate" may well end up dismantled, minimised, decentralised.  But what about its host Syria? Bashar al-Assad has proven unable to control the country and provide its people with human living conditions. Will (they) fix Syria as a whole and let millions or refugees return to their origin ?
 
[+] spoiler[-] spoiler
 
 

20.11.2015, 13:47

Last time edited : 20.11.2015, 14:29
windps
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I live in the USA, I find some of these comments really sad to be honest. Talking like Israel just goes and attacks people. Israel is one of the most tolerant countries in the world.  They are constantly being car bombed and attacked from all sides and they still haven't started a major war. If the middle east did to us what they do to Israel we would have been in WW3 a long time ago. You do know muslims live in Israel right? They co-exist and many are quite happy to live there.
 
No one ever mentions the reason for ISIS getting so much control and how the middle east went out of control in the first place. Doesn't anyone remember once we left Iraq the flood gates opened and ISIS gained popularity. Even before that the whole reason the middle east was so destabilized was Obama's Arab spring he was so proud of, causing the chaos and terrorist groups to try and take over all the empty seats of power.
 
   While some people are fleeing because they are truly scared, no one is talking about what kind of people are flooding the borders in EU. Not many of these comments seem to worried about all the influx of criminals and terrorists.
 
 No one is learning any lessons in this whole thing, even the US wants open borders with Syria, they have already caught terrorist trying to come over here from Syria on stolen passports. They have had people disappear hours after getting into the US and no one can find them. You have hot spots in Europe that even police don't want to go.
 
 The EU was a mess long before ISIS and Syria, our government is buying up massive amount of bonds to try and keep the EU above water while sinking our economy.
 
 No one has a "right" to go into a country, disrespect the law of the land or demand anything. You are a guest in a foreign country, you do not demand to be let into any borders.
 
 I would think after Paris that the EU would learn to tighten up borders, I wish we would learn that also but it will take much worse than that for my country to listen. Instead we have less rights. I guess we forgot 9/11. Even if none of this stuff I said happened EU is still going bankrupt and you can't afford to take care of any influx of people.
 
 If i lived in EU the 2 biggest things i would worry about is the easy influx of terrorist into the EU and the massive cost to all of our countries. Somehow it gets stuck on rights and responsibility. I detest this notion that somehow everyone is responsible for everyone else. It's one thing to help a person in need who just can't get by while working hard for his family, it's another to have people spread like a disease and ruin the world.
 
 I also wouldn't feel great to have Russia bombing all over the Middle East, Some would wonder why the sudden need Russia had to get in the middle of it. Russia does not do anything unless Russia has a stake in it. Air strikes are good for causing lots of damage and civilian casualties, but without ground troops it is useless.
 
ISIS will not go away, I dunno why anyone would think they are just going to somehow disappear. Anyone wonder where they get all their money?? Someone had to fund them, They haven't been doing much high profile kidnapping lately, most of those end up decapitated instead anyway. 
 

20.11.2015, 15:35

Last time edited : 20.11.2015, 19:30
Mike1
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ISIS makes about 1.4 Million a day with the oil wells they control in Syria - thats why the foreign forces now focus on taking out those wells and refineries. Most of the terrorists in the recent attacks were growing up in Europe. Apart from the fact that hundreds of them went to ISIS' training camps in Syria they have nothing in common with the Syrian refugees and displaced citizens.
 
The true decease may be opinions based on to little research, ignorance and selfishness.
 
Once again, this topic is about the migrant crisis not ISIS.
 
I recommend you watch the video at the bottom of this page:
http://www.vox.com/2015/11/18/9754606/isis-fred-hof ...
 
Seeking solutions, this article describes some options:
http://blogs.reuters.com/great-debate/2015/11/19/force-levels-and-military-options-for-u-s-in-syria/ ...  
 

21.11.2015, 06:19

Last time edited : 21.11.2015, 06:35
windps
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Um who started the issue in Syria? Isis and Obama, which without them there wouldn't be Syrian "refuges". They may have control of the oil now, that's not how they came to power. I'm sure the people that know where they got the money won't tell but the muslim brotherhood is resourceful, having wealthy contacts all over the world. Ask yourself who the refuges were before they ran into other countries. There are good people in almost every country but i dare say i wouldn't want most of them flooding into the US before or if i lived in the EU, let alone now with all the terrorist activity.
 
 I really don't know how easy it was to get in before but if what i read is correct it wasn't that hard, imagine how easy it is to infiltrate now(even though the EU has even more home grown terrorist than we do).
 
Asking what to do with them now once they are let in seems much of an after thought with no planning. Now you are stuck with people whom seem to have no respect for others. The safe thing for the EU to do is keep all of them in a camp or confined area and make sure none of them escape. You don"t need to treat them badly to confine them. Only takes a few to start another attack. They are getting fed and away from Syria, what more would a person with good intentions want? I think it's way to late to try and make the borders safe but better late than never.
 
  Even here i wish that would happen on the borders. Would save us a lot of money, jobs and aliens killing police and citizens. The key here is they aren't citizens what right do they truly have anywhere? Why? Because the U.N. says they have the right to do something? Our rights here ONLY apply to citizens, even though people want to think otherwise. I don't presume to know the details of EU laws but almost everywhere you have to be citizens to benefit from the perks even though people seems to find a way anyways.
 
                                                                   *  OFF TOPIC  *
 
We are going to get dragged into this one way or the other we might as well take the fight to them, but i don't think Obama has the balls and probably likes the chaos. For him to create the unrest and then kill the people he helped wouldn't go over well with his "extreme" friends. Be nice if we had a President and Pentagon that knew how to fight wars and ends this in days like we use to. Don't kid yourself though, i'm sure we have plenty of special forces no one knows about. Our Special Forces do not go to the Middle East and sit in "safe" zones. Training other countries troops we would otherwise call "combatants" doesn't make me feel any better. It doesn't work, cost a load of money and we end up giving our tech away.
 
 We don't need a stupid U.N peacekeeping task force, they do nothing to protect people. It really is as simple as packing up 10-20k troops, don't let anyone know your coming and take them by surprise, but no we have to broadcast a week before we do anything.
 
Btw, you need to find better places to find news. Reading the Wall Street Journal or watching CNN liberal media doesn't help much. They don't want people to know the things that go on. I find it funny a person commented in the link it was the fault of the Republicans that the Middle East was destabilized. First off, the Republicans weren't holding any power then, they just fell over and played dead while Obama had his way....almost as bad. 
 

21.11.2015, 14:58

Last time edited : 21.11.2015, 15:25
Mike1
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@ windps: Though we could argue about which one of your country’s leaders is to blame, i always consider your democratically elected president being the representative of your people and thus respect your personal openness and admittance that your country has been the biggest contributor to this situation.
 
I also understand your point regarding stricter border controls in Europe (i am myself, in private, against the Schengen agreement). However, even if we deemed the US immigration system as exemplary,  some 300'000 - 700'000 people (depending on the source) enter the US every single year without valid documents. Do you suggest things could be different if , instead of welcoming the refugees, the EU labels them as "illegals" and let them life in permanent hiding?
 
And even so, i do not understand how closing Europe's borders could resolve the situation in Syria and the migration issue. 
 

22.11.2015, 12:49

Last time edited : 22.11.2015, 13:02
windps
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It won't resolve the running from the Middle East (although when they can't run to the EU they might actually fight for their country). It will stop the massive burden it has on the EU. Do you think if EU wouldn't let them in so many people would knock on the door? I was shocked the first time i saw the police helping them get on a bus. It is a hard task to secure all the borders when you're going bankrupt but i would imagine it's cheaper than benefits and the cost of lives.
 
 Yes we have that problem here because Obama and our past presidents won't let the states enforce the laws we have. Arizona tried to build a wall, stop the influx, Obama threw a fit and complained to the supreme court.
 
Whether people follow the laws or not the Immigration laws ARE meant for a reason, and most times a good one. We are not a open country anymore like people claim. Even if the EU was in good shape before that is enough to cause a burden on resources and the economy. See you can't just look at it as just people needing help, it create a imbalance of the Agriculture when you have to ship food from where? When people are already starving. Food and water are gold mines. Ask for aid maybe? Who contributes most to the U.N.? USA and the UK. We are broke too. Winter is here, plenty of kids that needs food and clothing.
 
I will give an example that applies in a different way. Years ago the idea of using Ethenol as gas for a "greener" fuel. Farmers started planting a bit more corn. Win win right? Well no because over the year as demand for Ethanol increases it has created a shortage in feed for livestock, raising prices and not enough supply for the demand of everyone. Rising feed cost = rising prices even though oil prices have been cut in half. Not really because of Ethanol as it takes more energy to produce and gets 5-6MPG less(so i've been told).
 
The Influx of all those Illegal Aliens here puts a huge burden on the welfare system as well as Agricultural workers because many are cheap illegal paid workers who take money out the economy, don't pay taxes and send all the money home. The small minority have taken over our country all in the name of the Latino votes. Democrats play the Race game, Republicans are scared to say otherwise.
 
 I wish it was only 700,000 a year, I've heard ranges of 2-5 mil or more a year. One estimation say there are 20-50 million illegals over here, they can't really know for sure because how do you track them?? We have the laws and they would work, they just don't get enforced like they should. The short answer would be enforce the law and we would be fine. Instead they try to make new laws that go over top of the ones they don't enforce.
 
 We could also talk all day about the security issue which you could argue is worse than the influx, the vast amount of them are drug dealers smuggling pot and other drugs, it's dangerous to live on the bordering states here. People have been raped and murdered along the boarder. We also have reports of people from terrorist countries coming through the Mexico border. We have home grown Militia down in the southern states to help the border patrol spot these people, our President tried to stop them which is an infringement on our rights as citizens.
 
It's funny here, Mexicans who came here legally do not want them here.....I know the immigration process well and that is also why it makes me mad, i spent thousands of dollars and years of paperwork to get a process done i needed. I'm sure People in the EU had to do it the hard way also and that is why some people are upset.
 
At the end of the day, it is the choice of the people to flee into a country that is not their own. There is a reason you're a citizen of a country, it gives you protection by your country along with other rights. These people do not have rights of any other country, they have the rights of Syria (which is limited these days).
 
All the things i'm talking about could fit in the EU situation, i would worry more about the security threat there though.
 
BTW, we are a Republic not a Democracy, I dunno why the media and others tell people that. 
 

23.11.2015, 12:57
WSC01
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BTW: you have a representative democracy.
Republic means you don't have a monarch.
 
Small yet important difference.
Just like a lot of your comments on the subject above where you make a few small but important mistakes. 
 

24.11.2015, 01:55
windps
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I have never heard that. My understanding is that the majority decides in a Democracy, not so with a Republic. The republic votes by different rules, that's why people complain if the Presidency wins the popular vote and loses the election.
 

Just to double checked I looked it up, not sure what you mean by a Monarch....Ruler I suppose but that is not the difference.
 
http://www.c4cg.org/republic.htm
 
Not sure why you say I made a few small mistakes in A LOT of my comments. Pretty confusing and no specifics.
 
Are you from the USA?
 
I know this is off topic now. To you 
 

24.11.2015, 02:18
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There is no such thing as a democracy anywhere. Well you may be able to choose something with a whole crowd of people, but then there always will happen something else than they initially said. And then not to mention all other involved decision makers who got those power positions for some strange unknown reason.Very we! 
 

24.11.2015, 20:38
windps
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The Arab spring was very much a mob driven revolt. In general you maybe right...i dunno.
"revolution" in essence is a Democracy if it works. Just my opinion... 
 

25.11.2015, 22:59
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The video that explains it all has been there for 4 years, but only 4000 people noticed. She explains the reason is to surrender sovereignty and rights. 
 

19.03.2016, 10:37
Wonson
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Wow! Victor Orban finally all out to confront Brussels:
http://www.kormany.hu/en/the-prime-minister/the-prime-minister-s-speeches/speech-by-prime-minister-v ...  
 

20.03.2016, 14:02
Sulaco
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Wonson
I am a Hungarian, and I strongly advice you not to believe him.
 
He is a great politician. That is true. But he is still just a politician.
To be honest, I do not think he believe in his own words. He is just saying nationalist and other,, freedom figther,, stuff, meanwhile he as every other sane people here exactly know that Hungary is fully dependent on the EU in economic and other terms.
This is just bullshit to feed the average voter nothing else. Populism to be accurate. It means nothing.
As he once said
,,Do not care about what I say, you must only care about what I do,,
 
But, I am not saying that he is wrong, neither I say he is right. I am just saying that you must treat his speeches with much..... caution
 
By the way I am really happy that this migrant issue is finally solved. 
"Building better worlds"
 

20.03.2016, 14:29
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Sulaco,
What do you think about his last meeting with Vladimir Putin (one month ago)?
Do you think they made an alliance or was it just a show?
Do you think people will accept a turn toward Russia? 
 

20.03.2016, 21:57
Sulaco
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To anwser these questions we need to dig deep deep into Hungarian politics.
 
"What do you think about his last meeting with Vladimir Putin (one month ago)?"
 
To be honest, I did not care about much, because that meeting did not had "weight".
As far as I know 3 major issues were debated:
1, The Hungarian army is planning to replace the old helicopters, and the Russians offered to upgrade them instead of replacing. However this has been unofficially rejected.
 
2, The planned expansion of the Paks (city) nuclear power plant (I will refer to it as Paks 2 later)
 
3, gas deal
 
However, the results of the 2nd and the 3rd issues were nearly a fact before the negotiations even started.
 
"Do you think they made an alliance or was it just a show?"
Neither.
 
Hungary is not an ally of Russia, but it was not just a show.
The main issue was the 2nd one, the" Paks 2" issue.
The expansion of the Paks nuclear power plant is estimated to cost around 10 billion euros. That is a lot of money. The Russian Federation offered a low cost loan to finance the construction, which must be payed back later.
This issue is very sensitive, both in internal policitics and foreign relations.
Foreign relations:
The EU is generally sceptic about any big Russian projects within the EU not to mention, the fact that it had concernes that the new power plant can operaty only with Russian nuclear fuel. And this monopoly is against the laws on European Union Energy Security.
 
About the internal politics:
Many people here are sceptic about Paks 2 mainly because of 3 reasons:
 
1, This construction along with the Russian loan will increase the Russian influence on the Hungarian government and diplomacy.
 
2, Many people think that the government should promote green energy instead
 
3, The government had encrypted all data on Paks 2 for more than 20 years. Everything. Including the costs
Therefor many people fear that the Paks 2 project will be overpriced, and will become a general "pay out" project for the clients and puppets of the ruling political party. And the 20 years encryption will ensure that all crimes commited under the construction will be obsolate by the time the papers will be available for the public.
 
So, as we can see that this last issues is extremely sensistive. Therefor Orbán together with Putin needed to sign some papers and decleare that the project will not be abandoned, and they will  defend the project against any threats like the EU and the (non existing) Hungarian opposition.
 
"Do you think people will accept a turn toward Russia? "
 
I don't think so.
That is true that Hungary has serious economic relations with Russia, however the number one economic partner of Hungary is the EU.
More than 80% of Hungarian exports go to the EU, not to mention that Germany and Hungary has a very strong economic relationship in terms of investment and finance.
At this very moment, Hungary is completely tied to the European Union, which is mutually benefitial.
The Russian Federation can not offer an alternative against the EU for Hungary.
 
However, Russia is also an important trading partner. Therefor our best interest is to cooperate with Russia and cease any hostilities with the Russian Federation, not to mention, that the Russian embargo seriously hurt Hungarian agricultural exports, and many Hungarian companies (e.g OTP, Richter, MOL) have subsidiaries and interests in Russia
 
About the society:
1/3rd of the pop likes Russia and Putin (exspecially the far right)
more than 1/3rd hates it
nearly 1/3rd don't give  sht
 
The people who like Russia are very sceptical about the EU, however they are not aware of the economic situation of the EU, Russia and Hungary. They keep denying the fact that without the EU the Hungarian economy would collapse, therefor most of the people are just lets say "believers".
The Fidesz party lead by Orbán Viktor knows both that thes people are mostly "believers", and they alse know that the EU is vital to Hungary and Russia cannot offer an alternative against the EU.
Because of this, they partly use the Russian-Hungarian negotiations as a political tool to gain voters from the far rigth (Jobbik party).
 
In nutshell, Hungary's interest is to have a fair cooperation with the Russian Federation, but taking the current political situation in the EU ,Hungary will not move into the direction of Russia. Also a freindship or alliance with Russia would be very difficult to achieve due to historical reasons, as many people fear Russia, and will do everything to stay away from it.
(Russian intervention in the Hungarian revolution of 1848-49, the post WW2 occupation of Hungary and supporting the communists, the retaliation of the revolution of 1956) 
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