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List of forums -> Free communication (everything except serious game talk) -> Migrant crysis: what is your opinion?

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Topic:
  

Topic created : 4.09.2015, 21:55

Last time edited : 5.09.2015, 20:30
Sulaco
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Hi
Nowdays there is a lot of talking about the migrant crysis in Europe.
I am a Hungarian, so I am personally involved in this, but I would like to know what you, others think.
Please feel free to share your opinion, or ask questions.   

Message list:  

26.10.2015, 17:27

Last time edited : 26.10.2015, 17:31
Lord_David
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Tee_Bickle
Here is another opinion from the Netherlands.
 
Suppose I was a 22 year old refugee, living in a camp in Turkey for more than two years. As long as the war continues there is no future for me. I want to live, work, marry, have kids and make fun. That is not gonna happen if I stay in the refugee camp. I will probably risk my life and leave for Europe.
 
I am not a refugee living in a camp but a well payed civil servant living in the Netherlands. It seems fair to me that the Netherlands host some of the refugees that are staying in Turkey, Hungary and Greece, It does nog mean that they can stay forever, but as long as the war goes on it is inhumane and probably not feasable to send them back to Turkey.
 
Should we offer (some of) them a future in the Netherlands? It is ease for me to say yes, as my job will not be in danger. My less payed fellow countrymen cannot be that certain, some of them will probably loose there job to a young healty hard working Sirian. I find this a difficult moral dilemma.
 
The american philosopher John Rawkes suggested a thought experiment (called origional position) for moral dilemma's of society. In that thought experiment, one must decide which principles are right in the society we live in from behind a “veil of ignorance”, which means one does not know one's own position in society (gender, class, religion etc.) For example, in a society with 50%  free people and 50% slaves one should ask oneself if slavery is justified. If my position is unknown, that means there is a 50% chance that I am a slave. I am not prepared to take that chance so I will vote against slavery.
In the refugee dilemma there is a small chance that I will be a refugee (50k refugees in a country of 16M people).  There is even a smaller chance that I will be a Dutch citizen that will loose his job to a refugee. But there is a bigger chance that I will be one of the many that feels threatened by the influx of refugees. All in all, I still find it inhumane to host refugees for maybe five years and send them back to Syria in 2020.

It has nothing to do with jobs or salaries,...it's about numbers. Small numbers of refugees and non-western migrants can be integrated into a modern, western, liberal and democratic society. Millions and millions, won't have the need to assimilate, and will soon start making demands and trying to change their host country. I know my job won't be threatened by unskilled refugees from the middle-east and africa,....But I don't want my children or my grandchildren to live in a country where they would feel foreign, out-of-place and maybe unsafe. Because Holland without ethnic Dutch people, would no longer be Holland. If the majority are still western, it may keep being a western country but not Holland (the lesser of two evils). If the majority are muslims, it won't be neither Holland nor a Western country,....it will be Syria or Lebanon.
 
The difference between my view and yours, is the range of vision. You have a short-term vision: good job, good living, guaranteed pension,...and fuck the world after you die. Mine is a long-term vision: I want the same as you,....but I also think about my children and grand-children.
 
Anyway, I think it'd be better to stay out of politics here, because some of us may have very strong and opposing views,...and it may lead to heated debates (and even flame wars). 
 

26.10.2015, 17:39

Last time edited : 26.10.2015, 17:44
Lord_David
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aaallleee
I am from russia, and we have more then 2 ml. "Illegal migrants" from ukraine. We don't cry, we give them work, housing, food.
 
And you will be a tolerant and welcoming!

Give us your two million of Christian and highly-skilled Ukrainians, and we would give you in return 2 million of ultra-conservative muslim (and uneducated) Syrians, Iraquis, Afghans, Noth-Africans and Somalis,...plus cash plus economic benefits. How about the deal? ;) You think chechen and central asian immigrants in Russia are bad? It's because you didn't see arabs and muslims from Africa. 
 

26.10.2015, 21:33

Last time edited : 26.10.2015, 21:36
aaallleee
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Lord_David
aaallleee
I am from russia, and we have more then 2 ml. "Illegal migrants" from ukraine. We don't cry, we give them work, housing, food.
 
And you will be a tolerant and welcoming!

Give us your two million of Christian and highly-skilled Ukrainians, and we would give you in return 2 million of ultra-conservative muslim (and uneducated) Syrians, Iraquis, Afghans, Noth-Africans and Somalis,...plus cash plus economic benefits. How about the deal? ;) You think chechen and central asian immigrants in Russia are bad? It's because you didn't see arabs and muslims from Africa.

If you need Ukrainians, open your borders, and over 2 million will comes to you.
There is no difference between Russians, Syrians, Iraquis, Noth-Africans. They are the same people as we, in the hands of inept and weak politicians. The problem is not in religion and belief, it is fear fo the loss of your nationality.
 
 

26.10.2015, 22:52

Last time edited : 26.10.2015, 22:52
Lord_David
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aaallleee

If you need Ukrainians, open your borders, and over 2 million will comes to you.
There is no difference between Russians, Syrians, Iraquis, Noth-Africans. They are the same people as we, in the hands of inept and weak politicians. The problem is not in religion and belief, it is fear fo the loss of your nationality.

We're all people,...but we don't have the same culture, values, ethics, mentality, way of living and worldview. It's easier for an Ukrainian to assimilate in Germany, Uk or France,.....than a Somali, Afghan or a Syrian. I have nothing against their religion, culture and customs....as long as they live in their countries. Here in europe I don't want women in Burkas, pregnant 12-year old child-brides, and religious conflicts and warfares as if we still lived in the middle-ages. The same things a muslim wouldn't want in his country,.....uncovered women, rights for gays and minorities, separation between state and religion, etc.... People of all colours, creeds and religions have the right to preserve their countries, culture and way of life. Why not Europeans? 
 

28.10.2015, 15:36
Desolation72724
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If you're willing to wage war against Iraq & Afghanistan and 'liberate' the people from Tyranny, then you should also be willing to accept refugees on a humanitarian basis.
It just seems like a double-standard specially since almost all European countries have contributed to the UN security forces but when it comes to accepting refugees, they are reluctant to do so.
 
Hate against Muslims
The reasoning for the above statement is NOTHING but ignorance. On that basis, the Palestinians are right to fire rockets into the Israeli territory. Because Israel killed their civilians. If you keep fighting based on what was 'done to you', there will never be peace. Something has to give.
 
Europe Refugees
It's incredibly pathetic how Europe is the first to raise their voice over how people are being mistreated and wage wars on that basis and yet say 'Europe can't receive all people fleeing war'.
Everybody's talking about how wrong the public is being treated in North Korea but when the time to take in refugees arrives, Europe will back away.
 
Here in europe I don't want women in Burkas, pregnant 12-year old child-brides, and religious conflicts and warfares as if we still lived in the middle-ages. The same things a muslim wouldn't want in his country,.....uncovered women, rights for gays and minorities, separation between state and religion, etc.... People of all colours, creeds and religions have the right to preserve their countries, culture and way of life. Why not Europeans?
 
You don't want the Burkas? Where's the Freedom to exercise Religion? It's okay to print material that might incite retaliation and yet you get jailed for mentioning the holocaust? Where's my freedom of expression? Right to free speech?
You think all the arabs & muslims should stay where they are? Then don't come to this 'far-away land' to 'liberate' our people. But you will. You have made Billions, maybe even trillions by first destroying our countries, then handing out construction projects to your state-owned companies to rebuild what you destroyed. By taking over the oil-fields and installing Puppet Governments.
And trust me, where I live today, a guy from czech doesn't care if he's walking with a woman in a burqa next to him. We take the same bus, we eat at the same Burger King joint, we run at the same beach, and guess what? He doesn't get blown to bits cuz he thinks differently than me.
 
Almost all of you have never ever interacted and held a deep dialogue with an Arab but will spew forth paragraphs regarding how to deal with them.
Come to this city of mine and see how a church, a temple and a mosque are built within 50m of each other and everybody gets to go home and sleep fine. 
 

31.10.2015, 15:38
Wonson
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Desolation72724: It just seems like a double-standard specially since almost all European countries have contributed to the UN security forces but when it comes to accepting refugees, they are reluctant to do so. It was not the European people who came to muslim countries to liberate, they were armies controlled by world elites. All the normal people I know in Sweden, Germany, Australia and Finland disapprove the wars in middle east. They are victims of these wars themselves and they will have to suffer.
Desolation72724: Where's my freedom of expression? Right to free speech? better ask Mme. Le Pen or Geert Wilders, if you get a chance to meet them.
Desolation72724: Almost all of you have never ever interacted and held a deep dialogue with an Arab but will spew forth paragraphs regarding how to deal with them. I did, and I know muslims quite well. Detailed explanation of my observations may lead to censorship by admins, so better left for another time. All I can tell is that most of the members of those pre-literate societies have nothing to offer this world. To have an idea of how they think, one should really read the story of the teacher with 11 kids, and please remember he is a decent representative of that culture.
Desolation72724: Come to this city of mine and see how a church, a temple and a mosque are built within 50m of each other and everybody gets to go home and sleep fine. The place you live and you are so proud of, UAE, was just another arabian desert where people would kill each other to steal their fresh hunt, usually a locust, some 50 years ago. Their societies were no better than Eritrea of today and most of muslims still carry the same mentality as ISIS members do. But they do not practice their true believes just to preserve the welfare provided by US/UK companies and their cheap workers from Philippines. Ironically the welfare has never been created by the indigenous people, as "physical work" is a disgraceful activity to them, something left unnoticed in the story of the teacher with 11 kids. 
 

1.11.2015, 08:31
Desolation72724
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Idk about the Muslims you meet, mate, but by the Grace of my Higher Power, I manage to smile at anyone & everyone I see, not blow up to bits and still get to bed with a smile on my face looking forward to the next day Well
Somehow, I still get to be a follower of this 'pre-literate society' that you keep talking about. 
 

3.11.2015, 22:16
aaallleee
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Dear Europeans.
 
Want to hear from you. What do you think about the action of the Russian aircraft in Syria? 
 

3.11.2015, 22:48

Last time edited : 3.11.2015, 22:48
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At this point I still consider it as an accident; There are rumours it was a bomb, but well first await some proper investigation to form a conclusion/opinion.
 
The only thing I have an opinion about after watching a small part of the news: I think the government of Russia could've handled the remains of the victims in a more respectful way.
 
Also I expect that this tragic event leads to a lot of propaganda from the Russian government and "free press", which was also the case after the crashed MH17 above Ukrainian territory last year, and during the current investigation and objective conclusions. But probably that's a whole different discussion, actually I considered to make a topic about it, but probably that would've been a worse idea than this topic. 
 

13.11.2015, 22:57

Last time edited : 13.11.2015, 23:34
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Let's talk about planes in separate topic. This one is about Migrant crysis after all 
 

14.11.2015, 01:18
TyStuFF
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You're right. Migrant crisis and also the terrorism crisis.
 
Once again terrorist attacks in Paris, because of this "migrant" crisis. Already 30 people died and still counting.
 
What will be next? 
 

14.11.2015, 12:52

Last time edited : 14.11.2015, 12:54
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TyStuFF
You're right. Migrant crisis and also the terrorism crisis.
 
Once again terrorist attacks in Paris, because of this "migrant" crisis. Already 30 people died and still counting.
 
What will be next?

How does that make sense, one terrorist attack isn't about migrant crisis, the other is? I'm sick and tired of this constant suggestion to make millions of victims responsible for the actions of a handful of extremists. it is insulting and nothing short of discrimination.
 
All those immigrants and terrorist attack victims are victims of the same political power play that resulted not having intervened in Syria on time and letting IS power grow and spread. 
 

14.11.2015, 23:15

Last time edited : 15.11.2015, 00:05
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jeka_igla
If we dig dipper we could say that all this is a result of killing Saddam in Iraq who would't let ISIS spread in a first place.

Just like the gates of Africa were opened by killing Ghadaffi. 
 

15.11.2015, 15:12
Wonson
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TyStuFF: What will be next?
I am no oracle, but I wish the French can remember how the internal minister advocated jihad last year, and will hang the traitor in a very islamic death ritual he admired. 
 

16.11.2015, 22:43
Wonson
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Sorry for posting a lot, but there's something I could not resist:
Mother of Paris bomber said that his son was stressed and had no intentions of bombing Paris, maybe the explosives went off prematurely by accident. 
 

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