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List of forums -> Free communication (everything except serious game talk) -> Migrant crysis: what is your opinion?

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Topic created : 4.09.2015, 21:55

Last time edited : 5.09.2015, 20:30

Sulaco
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Hi
Nowdays there is a lot of talking about the migrant crysis in Europe.
I am a Hungarian, so I am personally involved in this, but I would like to know what you, others think.
Please feel free to share your opinion, or ask questions.   

Message list:  

5.09.2015, 13:17

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from what I hear on the news: Syrian refugees risk their lives to flee their country. They want to build a new future for themselves in Germany. Germany says everybody should welcome refugees. At the same time they tell the Hungarians to follow some rules and not allow the refugees to come into germany...
Hungary is depicted as inhumane. They were already building fences against serbian immigrants. Now they're overrun by syrians. The government doesn't want these people in hungary.
 
Again: this is what the news here says. I have no idea to what degree it corresponds to reality, but I am curious to learn what the news in Hungary says. As I would also like to hear from anybody in the Gulf states on their take and why they are not taking any refugees (if true).
 

Personally: it disgusts me that "we" are just letting all this happen. We always pretend to be so smart, developped, rich, ... And now we're just looking at this disaster unfolding for years now and all we can do is express our condemnation...
That being said: maybe there really is no solution for this "civil war" (is that a correct term?)... We're claiming to have been bomming ISIL for quite a while now. On the charts I see, their "territory" is only getting larger though...
 
In any event: removing the necessity for these people to flee would be the best solution, obviously... As long as that's not possible, we should do our best to help these people to safety and not let them drown in the mediterranean... 
 

5.09.2015, 15:14

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The United Nations Food Program severely lacks funding, since february this year more than a third of refugees in Syria's neighbouring countries have lost their food vouchers.
 
http://www.pressreader.com/canada/toronto-star/20150905/281844347404984/TextView ...
 
No surprise that these people opt to leave their cultural origin with all related risks over death of hunger. 
 

5.09.2015, 20:47.     Subject: Hungary and the migrants

Sulaco
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Justnash
I totally agree with your last paragraph.
I think that in order to solve this problem, we must destroy the origion of the problem, which is the Syrian civil war. Honestly, I woul prefer that our governments would dopr bombs on the jihadist instead of spend that on the refugees.
Because on the longterm, the only solution is to stabilize Syria.
 

Okay, so before I begin with the actual situation you must know something about us Hungarians.
 
First of all, we Hungarians generally do not like foreigners. This has historical reasons, if you have time and you are eager to understand what is happening on Hungary, please spend 10 minutes on reading our history on the wikipedia. Exspecially our history after 1500.
Hungarians have an immense hatred towards muslims. This hatred originate from the fact that the Ottoman Empire invaded and conquered about one third of our country. Our capital was occupied by the Turks in 1541 and was freed in 1686. This is the main reason we hate muslims.
But many Hungarians hate Russia, and a few Hungarian hate the "West".
So yeah, we are not a very "tolerant" nation.
But, we love the Germans, and the Scandinavians. Exspecially the Finns. And we like the English, Canadians and many of us like the Americans too. Some of us likes Russia.
 
About the migrant situation:
 
First of all, 99% of the "refugees" are not refugees at all.
They are illegal migrants.
Why are they illegal?
Because they illegaly come through our borders, violating the international and domestic laws and national sovereignity.
Why are they migrants, not refugees?
The refugee status is only valid till they reach a "safe" country.
Most illegal migrants come from Syria, through Turkey, Greece, Macedonia,  Serbia to Hungary.
Serbia, Macedonia, Greece and even Turkey are safe countries.
They are refugees in Turkey or Lebanon or Jordania.
However here on Hungary they are migrants, who want to reach Germany. 
 

5.09.2015, 21:05.     Subject: Hungarian migrant crysis

Last time edited : 6.09.2015, 13:55

Sulaco
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So, as you all know we are in the Schengen area, so it is extremely important to defend our southern borders, or at least control the inflow of migrants.
This is the point where I need to mention that more than 80% of these illegal migrants are young men (20-40).
This is not some superstition, this is a fact. There are statistics and pictures and videos which prove this.
I can link you some pictures if it is needed.
 
Hungary's main problem is, that we have to obey the rules of the EU, so every migrant has to stay in Hungary till they recieve the proper papers, and their refugee status is claimed. They are not allowed to travel freely in the Schengen area.
However we cannot handle the situation for several reasons:
First of all, our resources are scarce (exspecially now that there is a stense siutation between footbal hooligans and the police).
Secondly, migrants do not cooperate.
They deny to give us their fingerprint or papers, because they do not want to stay here meanwhile the paperwork is done.
 
About the recent situation:
 
I think most of you know about the happenings near the "Keleti train station"  (Keleti means "Eastern in Hungarian). So the migrants "invaded" and camped near the train station meanwhile all trains to western Europe were cancelled beacuse of them ( I was to travel to Brno, but now I can't beacuse of them). After this the police allowed them inside the station, where they immediatly boarded several trains they thought heading for the Austrian border. Instead the train headed for Bicske, a refugee camp in Hungary, where the train was stopped and sorrounded by the police. The police want to bus them to the refugee camp to get their fingerprints and datas.
However most of them denied this and camp near the train at this very moment.
This is a perfect example these migrants do not obey our laws and rules and they cannot be controlled unless by force.
 
An other part of the migrants stayed at the Keleti station, from which they started to march on foot to Austria.
They marched on the highway causing 10 km traffic jam.
After a while the police sent them buses to bus them to the Austrian border
This was yesterday.
And now an other group started its march to Austria.
 
Meanwhile, around 300 hundred migrants escaped the refugee camp at Röszke, after they broke through the fence. They also claimed that the will broke the fence by force, and lit the camp on fire unless their asylum papers will be ready in 2 hours.
They said this yesterday, but nothing more happened to this moment.
Here is a video of the migrant camp break out:
 
http://www.theguardian.com/world/video/2015/sep/04/hungarian-police-video-appear-to-use-tear-gas-aga ...
 
The main problem is that this "march" and the happenings near the Keleti train station created a precedent.
 
At this moment, Schengen and the free movement, one of the basic rights and ideologies of the European Union is at stake.
In my opinion, nobody who illegally violate our borders must be allowed into Hungary and the Schengen area.
However I think that those Syrian who came here through legal methods must be allowed, however only to a refugee camp where they can get an asylum.
 
The problem becomes even more complex:
Yesterday the Hungarian parliament aproved a law, whcih deccleares Serbia a safe country, so all migrants who come from Serbia will be transfered back. At least theoritically.
 

Feel free to ask any questions. 
 

5.09.2015, 21:10.     Subject: Media

Last time edited : 6.09.2015, 00:12

Sulaco
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About the media reputation of Hungary:
 
Migrants are treated well in therefugee camps, even in the train in Bicske.
They are given food and water, however the migrants at Bicske throw away the food and water given to them.
 
However the police are very annoyed. They have not used any kind of force yet, but I don't think this will stay for long. 
 

5.09.2015, 23:46

Wonson
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interesting live news.
 
what you say about the possibility of using force against the refugees is an acceptable prediction, and if Hungarian police open fire and kill masses i won't take pity on them. palestinians are known to be bold and greedy people that usually do not respect any law and order, and i have heard syrians and lebanese are no better. non-written but widely believed assumption about these people is: don't let them in or you will have to find another house for yourself (the phrase is not mine, that's what some people say in middle east). one living proof is the availability of many jobs in those arabian oil states (uae, saudi arabia and qatar). but for long time they preferred not to offer palestinians any jobs in their lands, and now syrian refugees are not offered any opportunity. another proof is what they actually are doing right now while travelling to their dream lands: smashing windows and fighting local police. 
 

6.09.2015, 00:19

Last time edited : 6.09.2015, 00:26

Sulaco
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I do not think that the Hungarian police will ever shot at the migrants. That is the thing which will not be done unless they attack the police with weapons.
Police in Hungary very rarely use their guns.
I think they will just use tear gas and batons, if the situation becomes more tense.
 
To this point, the police had not used batons, only some tear gas and pepper spray.
They had even given food and water to the migrants, which many of them throw away as a protest.
 
here are 2 intresting videos:
 
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7L3eSbpETf8 ...
 
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Ok5MTXuZ6pY ...
wait till 0:40
The police do not understand what is going on.
An officer asks (not so loud):
"Jézusom. Mit csinál ez?"
which means:
"Jesus. What is he doing?" 
 

6.09.2015, 12:31

Last time edited : 6.09.2015, 12:32

Mike1
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Thanks for providing insight into your local situation, Sulaco.
 
i’m currently living in Switzerland.  Hardly any country can beat its proportion of hosted refugees vs population.
Though almost 30% of citizens here are foreign nationals (who can’t vote) just a few weeks ago our village has established a refugee centre hosting hundreds of people and we all feel great to give them a chance for survival and a peaceful life.
 
Europe seems to respect Hungary’s reservations and work hard to allocate resources and bring resolution to the crisis.
Note that those refugees didn't come to Hungary to stay. Rather than shooting them on their trail to survival i hope patience and humanity can prevail.
 
Regarding destroying the source of the problem: Russia, China, Iran and others disagree with intervention since the start of the Syrian war. It would probably have been done already but Europe isn’t the US … 
 

8.09.2015, 21:12

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Mike1: Regarding destroying the source of the problem: Russia, China, Iran and others disagree with intervention since the start of the Syrian war...
 
i think i get the point and totally agree. another problem with this recently invented country, and also adjacent countries, is the lack of plan for government. being backyard of old empires (roman empire, islamic empire, othoman empire) for 2000 years and gaining independence after WW1, they certainly don't know what to do as a government. during Israel-arabic wars in 50s and 60s these countries received some payments from saudi arabia and egypt to resist, and the situation gave them an idea: chaos and war is not totally bad and can be source of money. so the role of their government s became to create chaos and collect some charity from other countries. but syria leaders (if we can call those janitors as leaders) are overdoing things and collapse! 
 

9.09.2015, 00:14

Mike1
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If only every human's priority would be to treat others the way they expect to be treated themselves we'd be in paradise already. 
 

14.09.2015, 01:05

Wonson
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A fine news, not totally irrelevant:
Al Qaeda chief urges lone wolf attacks, militant unity 
 

15.09.2015, 00:04

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Sulaco,
 
ever wondered why so many want to flee from your Hungarian refugee camps? May be the treatment they received there was not as an human being expects. Some Report indicate this and situations like letting hundreds of refugees wait in a train at 30 C without being allowed to leave it for hours without having enough to drink doesn't sound like the right treatment, as well. I don't know if it happened because of overstrained authorities (would be understandable regarding the masses of refugees), bad organisation or by intention. I hope not for the latter, since I always enjoyed my stays in Hungary and would like to continue to love the people there.
 
What does it prove, that 80% of the refugees are young man (I don't know if your number is correct, but I don't have a better one)? Who would risk going on an overfilled boat over the sea or hundreds of kilometers by foot through foreign countries? I assume mostly young man, some with their families, some without. I expect most of the Syrian retirees would not be able to afford paying traffickers and withstand the circumstances of such a journey. Regarding the refugees who arrived here in Munich, there quite a lot of families amound them.
 
I totaly disagree with your opinion about the illegality of the refugees. Even if they moved on from a neighbour country of Syria on towards mid Europe, they are still refugees to me. I know the law would allow the European countries to send them back to the first save country they have reached. But how should this work? Have you checked the situation in the neighbour countries? Last numbers I heard was, that there are already 1.6 million Syrians in Turkey, more than 1 million in Libanon (about 20% of it's population!). If such not that rich countries can help so many, why shouldn't Europe be able to help those few hundred thousands who made it here?
And btw, to me no-one IS illegal. One might be in a country without a official permission, but he still is a human being and sould be treated like this and not called being illegal.
 
What is interesting in these videos? We don't have any information about the situation there. What the refugees might have been promised and not hold before or whatever. It just shows some angry (first) and desperate (second) refugees who were running out of passion for reasons we don't know. And even if could understand the comments in it, I realized the second one is from Russian Television, everything else than an unbiased free journalist media company.
 
Unacceptable to me is your explanation for your hate against muslims. You say it is so, because other muslims have occupied your capital some hundreds of years ago? What a silly reason. Just look at the European history. Almost anyone in Europe would have to hate several other states because of that. So many occupations, so many wars for such a long time. But now we are building this house called Europe to get over all this old stuff. We, who are living today, have to live together in peace and good neighbourhood and over all, this worked not too bad since WWII. If you care so much about what had happened in the past, what do you think, how many should hate how many others for what fromer generations had done?
 
Btw, if we Europeans will not be able to continue this great idea of Europe, then we might be the refugees in a few decades.
 

> Honestly, I woul prefer that our governments would dopr bombs on the jihadist instead of spend that on the refugees.
 
If this would be possible, I would agree. Probably even the refugees who then wouldn't have to leave their country. But how do you tell your bombs who is the jihadist and who the civilist? There are not too many examples in recent history where bombs helped to change situations to become better.
 
Ackermann
Munich, Germany 
 

16.09.2015, 23:00

Last time edited : 16.09.2015, 23:01

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Close the borders.
 
No more criminals with illegally obtained cash starting an economic war against us. Seriously, these people have more wealth than plenty of habitants of our countries, who basically get kicked out of their houses after years of working and participating in our own country. And then illegal criminals can live in the houses of people who build up their own country.
 
I don't understand why people even consider to complain about the actions of Hungary by closing their borders. I applaud these actions. There are a lot of proper procedures possible to legally live in our countries, and they avoid these options by infiltrating our countries. If you flee for war, why start a war yourself? It makes no sense at all.
 
Actually the people who deserve to get help, will never get the opportunity to move to a proper country. You must be rich to become richer, and poor to become poorer.
 
Besides, we have plenty of problems ourself within the European Union already; We pay for Greece, we have Polish and Hungarian people taking our jobs and living cheap with 10 people in one house, sending all our money from our economy to their home country. Which of course is a right, which I don't really understand. And not to mention the criminal gangs from Eastern Europe who can legally cross borders, to steal money/possessions of elderly people. There is also an economic war between Europe/USA and Russia going on for quite some while. And now all of a sudden we have to deal with another bunch of problems which aren't really our problem.
 
I'm wondering how many more people from our country will actually migrate to another country, because they are sick of this nonsense. And as I said before: Rich people only are able to flee to another country.
 
And what will be next? The well educated, relatively rich and lucky people are gone from our formerly 'wealthy" countries, and the general people will become poorer and dumber than it even wars. At some points we might go back to a stage which might be even comparable to the economy like it was just a few years/decades after WWII.
 
But well this is just my view as someone from the Netherlands who already saw enough problems passing by. 
 

17.09.2015, 01:07

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Here is another opinion from the Netherlands.
 
Suppose I was a 22 year old refugee, living in a camp in Turkey for more than two years. As long as the war continues there is no future for me. I want to live, work, marry, have kids and make fun. That is not gonna happen if I stay in the refugee camp. I will probably risk my life and leave for Europe.
 
I am not a refugee living in a camp but a well payed civil servant living in the Netherlands. It seems fair to me that the Netherlands host some of the refugees that are staying in Turkey, Hungary and Greece, It does nog mean that they can stay forever, but as long as the war goes on it is inhumane and probably not feasable to send them back to Turkey.
 
Should we offer (some of) them a future in the Netherlands? It is ease for me to say yes, as my job will not be in danger. My less payed fellow countrymen cannot be that certain, some of them will probably loose there job to a young healty hard working Sirian. I find this a difficult moral dilemma.
 
The american philosopher John Rawkes suggested a thought experiment (called origional position) for moral dilemma's of society. In that thought experiment, one must decide which principles are right in the society we live in from behind a “veil of ignorance”, which means one does not know one's own position in society (gender, class, religion etc.) For example, in a society with 50%  free people and 50% slaves one should ask oneself if slavery is justified. If my position is unknown, that means there is a 50% chance that I am a slave. I am not prepared to take that chance so I will vote against slavery.
In the refugee dilemma there is a small chance that I will be a refugee (50k refugees in a country of 16M people).  There is even a smaller chance that I will be a Dutch citizen that will loose his job to a refugee. But there is a bigger chance that I will be one of the many that feels threatened by the influx of refugees. All in all, I still find it inhumane to host refugees for maybe five years and send them back to Syria in 2020. 
 

17.09.2015, 01:17

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I meant the american philosofer John Rawls (not Rawkes). For info about the veil of ignorance visit
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Veil_of_ignorance ...  
 

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